Interview with Gerry Bergstein – Portray Perceptions

Gerry Bergstein is a well known Boston painter and trainer who has massively influenced many artists because the Nineteen Eighties. I not too long ago was viewing his work on-line and have become re-enchanted by his astounding expertise and big selection of artwork historic references, kinds, processes, and material. His morphing and juxtapositioning of visible and cultural opposites has made for a extremely creative and private artwork not like every other. I significantly love his resistance to doctrine and his contrarian takes on the chances for artwork. I made a decision to ask him for an interview and was extremely delighted and grateful when he agreed to speak with me on a Zoom name.

The late Francine Koslow Miller wrote in a 2002 Art Forum review of a Gerry Bergstein exhibition on the Howard Yezerski Gallery.

“Bergstein pursues darker considerations in his vaguely architectural black-and-white work of mounds. An amalgam of decaying mountain, medieval constructing, and phallus, the mound all the time seems to be imploding or exploding in these works, which resemble pencil drawings on broken paper (right here the artist etched traces right into a ready floor of black paint overlaid with white). For Mount, 2002, Bergstein moved his stylus backwards and forwards throughout the extremely detailed central type in strokes imitating the rhythmic gestures of a cellist. Within the monumental Self-Portrait as Tower of Babel, 2002, the mound is beneath siege, pierced with luscious black holes; it begins to topple earlier than a romantic cloudy sky. References to Leonardo’s Deluge drawings, Brueghel’s Tower of Babel, and Piranesi’s ruins abound on this anthropomorphic citadel, whose stony pores and skin seems to be ripping aside. (It’s laborious not to consider the World Commerce Middle as properly.) Hidden among the many gaps within the tower are self-portraits and different small photos: insect caricatures, a paint tube, a Guston “eye,” a thumb, a rocket ship.

In these works Bergstein equates nature and tradition with private ambition and beliefs. The mounds might posit civilization as a ravishing pile of rubbish, however additionally they recommend Bergstein as existentialist antihero on the foot of his personal mountain of ambition (his aim being to attain international relevance whereas staying true to himself). As Albert Camus ends his Fantasy of Sisyphus: “This universe henceforth with no grasp appears to him neither sterile nor futile. Every atom of that stone, every mineral flake of that night-filled mountain in itself varieties a world. The battle itself towards the heights is sufficient to fill a person’s coronary heart. One should think about Sisyphus completely happy.” Bergstein likewise transforms the torment of his battle into victory.”

—Francine Koslow Miller

Nicholas Capasso wrote in his essay Expressionism: Boston’s Claim to Fame
(Initially revealed in Painting in Boston: 1950-2000)
 

“…Bergstein distilled all these sources”(Max Ernst, Rene Magritte, de Kooning, Gorky, and Guston) “…into a private strategy by which Surrealist methods of free affiliation and irrational juxtaposition have been dropped at bear on expressively distorted photos created with an incredible facility of craft. This artist might draw and paint like an expressionist, an Summary Expressionist, a veristic Surrealist, and a trompe-l’oeil grasp—and convincingly mix these kinds on a single canvas. Throughout the eighties, this stylistic spectrum was matched by an equally numerous vary of images drawn from artwork historical past, self-portraiture, nature, common tradition (particularly tv), and the suburban cultural panorama—once more, all on the identical floor. “
“…I continued to discover the spatial tensions obtained by juxtaposing thick and skinny paint. I had all the time been eager about juxtaposition of photos (Magritte). I used to be discovering that juxtapositioning of various surfaces may very well be simply as unusual and surreal.”

The purpose of Bergstein’s method and strategy to imagery is basically humanistic and expressionistic. He seeks to precise ineffable psychological states conditioned by his personal expertise of the world—an admittedly chaotic and complicated world—as a mannequin for emotionally apprehending bigger points in up to date society, psychology, epistemology, and ontology. These weighty themes, although, are all the time tempered by humor. Because the artist explains it, “My aim is to do for portray what Groucho Marx and Alfred Hitchcock did for motion pictures and tv. My work is a illustration of the paradoxes, ironies, and absurdities of our media-bombarded tradition, translated by means of the language of paint.” Elsewhere he wrote, “I nonetheless marvel how the unexplainable creation of the universe, the light-speed motion of all these subatomic particles, and billions of years of evolution might have led to squeezing the Charmin, tax returns, life insurance coverage, the artwork world, and different unusual outcomes. If, as Einstein mentioned, ‘God doesn’t play cube with the universe,’ perhaps he was enjoying bingo.”

From Gerry Bergstein’s website:

Bergstein’s work contrasts the superior and the trivial, the excessive and the low, the manic and the melancholic utilizing sources from Brueghel to “The Simpsons.” He’s the recipient of an Artadia grant (2007), a profession achievement award from the St. Botolph Membership (2007), and a four-week residency on the Liguria Examine Middle in Genoa, Italy (2006). His solo exhibits embrace Gallery NAGA and the Danforth Museum; Howard Yezerski Gallery, Boston (’04, ’02, ’99, ’97); Stephan Stux Gallery, NY (’99); Galerie Bonnier, Geneva, Switzerland; Zolla Lieberman Gallery, Chicago, IL; and the DeCordova Museum, Lincoln, MA. He’s represented within the collections of The Museum of Nice Arts, Boston; MIT; DeCordova Museum; Davis Museum at Wellesley School; IBM; and lots of others. He has been reviewed extensively within the native press in addition to Tema Celeste, ARTnews, Artwork in America, and Artforum. He has been on the school on the College of the Museum of Nice Arts, Boston for over 20 years.

Larry Groff:
What have been your early years rising up like? What was your loved ones like? 

Gerry Bergstein:
I grew up within the Bronx and Queens in New York, the place I stayed until I went away to school and left New York. We lived in Bayside Queens, which was nothing like Manhattan. I’d be very stunned if anybody else on my block ever went to the MoMA, as an example. Nevertheless, my father cherished to attract and paint; my mom cherished music and literature.  I’ll not have develop into an artist if not for his or her assist. Like when my mom informed me to go to see that Max Ernst present. If my mom have been alive immediately, she would have develop into a Music or an English professor, however she didn’t get to go to school, sadly. My father was an accountant. When he was youthful, he did a number of fantastic sensible drawings of his household; a lot of them are hanging in my house.  He may need made it as an artist,  however his household discouraged it, and he wanted a job to assist the household. He continued to attract and play the piano like Mozart, and  Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata was considered one of my favorites. So I grew up round classical music and older artwork. 

My dad and mom didn’t get up to date artwork. One time, once I was a lot older, I went with my mother to the Guggenheim, which had simply reopened with a Dan Flavin present after having been closed for a time, and the very first thing she mentioned, “Properly, I assume they don’t have the artwork right here but – they’ve simply put the lights. (laughs)  And so, a part of my situation with excessive and low artwork is that I’ve that skepticism of my mother, however alternatively, I additionally like a number of that stuff. Finally, I got here to love Dan Flavin. So I’ve blended emotions about excessive and low, and I like combining them. So I’m a contrarian I all the time see either side of every part, which is each enjoyable and wholesome. 

LG:
 I learn that your mom inspired you to see a Max Ernst retrospective on the MoMA within the early 60s. I used to be curious so I regarded on-line to see if there was any details about that present and located the catalog for the present on the MoMA web site – I discovered a quote that appeared prefer it might have additionally been describing your work. 

“From Ernst’s frottagee, decalcomanlas and flows of pigment emerge a procession of visions generally obsessive and infrequently prophetic: new landscapes inhabited by new phantoms and animals; new adventures and new terrors revealed by the rarest and most vital goals. The world of Ernst will be turbulent, eruptive and violent. It could additionally provide with irrational lucidity and calm, a proof of the magic of objects, the black humor of human foibles and the apparition of unseen presences. Just like the trying glass, the Imagined world of Ernst is a reverse picture. It is usually a universe.”

Are you able to say one thing about your curiosity in Ernst and every other influences which might be most necessary, particularly the surrealists?

Gerry Bergstein:
I used to do these little summary, very detailed ink drawings. They have been principally summary, however my mother should have acknowledged one thing about their complexity, so she despatched me to the Max Ernst present, which blew me away. I agree with the assertion you gave.

“new adventures and new terrors revealed by the rarest and most vital goals, the world of Ernst will be turbulent, eruptive and violent“, is one thing I’m very eager about in addition to “The magic of objects”.  Magritte put it in another way. Magritte did a portray of a marriage ring floating on high of a piano. He had this concept of secret and magical affinities between objects, you couldn’t put these affinities into phrases, however I like that concept. I assume that’s a complete Surrealist concept. And the final line that Max Ernst’s work as a universe additionally rings true to me. Though my work is a universe–it’s the universe inside my mind and my studio. Perhaps the universe is within the mind of the beholder.

I acknowledge stuff from engaged on an image. I’m not superb at observing actuality in nature. I’m sort of unhealthy at it, perhaps, as a result of I’ve by no means completed it that a lot. Nevertheless, what I’m good at is exploring my mind visually in response to the marks I make, I’ve this sgraffito course of, by which the paint stays moist for a month, and I can draw into and out of it. I mix various things. I’ll depart the studio after which come again the following day, and it’s telling me one thing, to boost this or to deemphasize that. I’m fairly good at that. It’s simply who I’m, which includes free affiliation and rorschaching. Gregory Gillespie talked about rorschaching loads and is much like what I do – however totally different.

Larry:
I’m questioning if the painter Ivan Albright has some affinities with you? It’s not surrealism or rorshaching, however the depth and drive of his imaginative and prescient maybe are associated to you and Gillespie’s work.

Gerry Bergstein:
Completely, I believe the ironic factor is about these polarity issues I went to Chicago and noticed Albright’s portray, That Which I Should Have Done I Did Not Do (The Door), a few years in the past. I noticed an image of it in a e book once I was a young person, and it completely blew me away, however once you stand up near the precise portray and take a look at one sq. inch of that door, it seems like a microscopic Jackson Pollock. So many little fascinating marks. I like artwork that refers, deliberately or not, to the entire of Artwork in an authentic method.

Gerry Bergstein:
Another factor about surrealism, are you aware the portray Hide and Seek by Pavel Tchelitchew?

LG: Positive.

Gerry Bergstein:
I cherished it as a young person, after which in 2017, I retired from educating, however in 2019 I used to be persuaded to show a grad seminar, however I used to be shy and nervous about my listening to and was afraid I wasn’t updated sufficient. So to appease myself, I visited MOMA simply two days earlier than that class began in 2019. And I walked as much as the third flooring and there was Cover and Search hanging once more after it had been in storage for like 30 years. The wall textual content mentioned that in 1961, which was the yr I first noticed it, was voted by the general public to be the preferred portray in our assortment. Properly, I believed that was such an affirmation. I don’t find it irresistible as a lot as I used to, however I believed, ‘what goes round, comes round’.  It suffered from acclaim, rejection, and re-acclaim. I believe that’s so nice.

Prefer it or not, the politics of artwork aesthetics within the artwork world come into my work, in a really ambivalent method.

LG: 
You studied on the Artwork College students League?

Gerry Bergstein: I studied on the artwork college students league for a yr with Harry Sternberg. Who was an amazing trainer. He taught me what freedom was. Harry Sternberg was buddies with Jack Levine. And his work, at instances, was just a little bit like Jack Levine. Edwin Dickinson was proper subsequent door. And Lennart Anderson was there on the time. I moved to Boston by chance. I had no clue in regards to the Boston expressionist faculty, however I believed it was ironic that I moved to Boston and have become considerably concerned with that custom and Boston somewhat than New York.

LG:
Why did you progress to Boston?

Gerry Bergstein:
I needed to go to a spot that was affiliated with the school. In any other case, I’d have been drafted.

LG:
What was your expertise going to the museum faculty (College of the Museum of Nice Arts at Tufts College) again then?  You studied with Henry Schwartz, Barney Rubenstein and Jan Cox, a Belgian Surrealist painter. Was Barney the principle trainer that will help you study realist and trompe l’oeil portray?

Gerry Bergstein:
Henry Schwartz taught me extra; he had these weird setups that have been surreal, they usually jogged my memory just a little little bit of a few of Bruce Connors’s early work. Surreal setups with musical scores and portraits and various things pasted it collectively, they usually have been pleasant and hilarious. I realized loads from that challenge and I assume that’s what bought me eager about trompe l’oeil. Barney was extra of a buddy. I adored Barney and realized loads from him, nevertheless it wasn’t a teacher-student factor; it was extra lengthy conversations. Plus, I cherished his work. Jan Cox woke up sure issues in my creativeness. I took a design class with him, and he was candy and accepting of surprising concepts.

I skilled the museum faculty in numerous methods. I used to be a  scholar there within the final two years of the extremely educational curriculum to the scholar revolution in 1970, which modified that utterly. Quickly after that, Clement Greenberg started to carry sway in Boston with new college at college and Kenworth Moffett, a  Greenburg acolyte, being employed because the M.F.A.s first up to date curator. Clement Greenberg was seen by some as being on the apex of modernism in Boston; though his affect was already in decline in New York. I preferred modernists like Morris Louis and Jules Olitski however I believed that the concept you couldn’t present realism or surrealism as a result of some second-rate philosophy was simply infuriating.
Regardless that the museum faculty was actually educational for the primary three years I went there, I managed to seek out my method by means of that, and I’m glad I had some publicity to, you realize, actual educational drawing and that sort of factor. Regardless that I wasn’t that nice at it,

LG:
Do you suppose painters want that sort of educational coaching?

Gerry Bergstein:
That’s an excellent query. The museum faculty modified radically in 1969. The scholar strike throughout the anti-war motion. The top of the varsity was fired, and a brand new head of the varsity changed him, and insurance policies have been modified so college students might make their very own curriculum; you didn’t need to take any course you didn’t wish to. For the primary few years, the outcomes have been disastrous. However finally, it type of labored itself out. Do all artists want that educational construction? I’m unsure, I believe I wanted it, however I don’t know. What do you suppose?

LG:
After I was at school, I sought out conventional realist coaching. A number of the summary painters whom I love essentially the most additionally went by means of that educational rigor. However then there are different summary painters who have been self-taught or didn’t get a lot educational coaching, who I additionally like. So I don’t suppose there’s any proper option to study artwork, though I do suppose it’s important to study artwork historical past properly. I don’t consider in only one proper reply and check out to withstand artwork doctrine.

Gerry Bergstein:
There’s nobody reply; I completely agree. Yeah. I imply, I believe de Kooning was an amazing draftsman and I like his early work; I don’t suppose Pollock was such an amazing draftsman.

LG:
Nevertheless, Pollock did research with Thomas Hart Benton, who helped give him an understanding of construction.

Gerry Bergstein:
That’s precisely proper. I believe his compositions have one thing just a little bit in frequent with Benton’s compositions.
Pollock knew what he was; he knew the terrain. Youngsters going to artwork faculty immediately get little or no of that, though perhaps that’s a gross generalization, I don’t know. I believe it might nonetheless be doable to get it if you need it sufficient.  Gregory Gillespie as soon as mentioned to me that regardless of going to the San Francisco Artwork Institute, he thought of himself self-taught as a result of it was strict summary expressionism when he was there and didn’t provide a lot in the best way of studying find out how to be a realist painter.

LG:
Perhaps that’s not all the time such a foul factor generally. Gillespie might have taught himself the best way he wished to color realistically, however his time at San Francisco Artwork Institute finally helped him develop into such an incredible painter; he should have gotten one thing out of it, simply not realist portray chops. Gregory Gillespie is amongst my favourite painters.

Gerry Bergstein:
I bear in mind a narrative about Chuck Shut, whom I believe went to Yale. He was a fairly good summary painter again then. I heard him communicate as soon as at Harvard, and he mentioned, The issue with summary portray was that he would go away his studio considering, ‘that is the very best factor that’s ever been completed on the earth’. Then he would come again the following day, and it regarded like full crap; he wished to do one thing that he may very well be verifiable that he was doing it proper. He additionally wished to get as distant from de Kooning as doable. So if de Kooning used a number of coloration, he used black and white. If de Kooning was completely into the act of portray, he was watching TV whereas he was portray. His transfer to be self-consciously away from that’s fascinating to me as properly. In a while, he joked that he had made extra de Kooning’s than de Kooning himself with all his little “coloured pixels” in grids that you just see in his later work.
So we’re on this type of lineage. Most likely if I hadn’t taught, I don’t suppose I’d be serious about the stuff a lot in any respect, however since I taught, it’s a vital factor to me.

LG:
It’s most likely not useful to all the time be reacting in opposition to one thing or rebelling. Sooner or later, it’s important to resolve what you wish to be.

Gerry Bergstein:
The act of rise up in itself doesn’t assure good artwork. There needs to be some type of factor of affection and discovery within the work, not simply rise up.  I would like each love and rage.

LG:
How did your profession as a painter evolve after ending faculty? What was life like for you again then? Had been you in a position to paint full-time? Did you begin educating instantly?

Gerry Bergstein:
once I first bought out of college. I bought a touring fellowship and spent 4 months in Europe, which was life-changing.  After I bought again, for round 5 – 6 years, I labored full-time as an image framer. I didn’t get a lot time to color then. I needed to make a residing, however I made it a degree by no means to surrender. 

In 1973 I bought a grant to go to an artist in residency in Roswell, New Mexico, for six months. They gave you a stipend, home, and studio. I went there and bought to know some severe artists. We turned pleasant. I bought to know their work habits and know what it was wish to have time to work, which was terrific. 

After I returned in about 1977, I bought a job educating on the night time faculty within the Museum College. However it paid 5 {dollars} an hour, my dad and mom would ship me cash infrequently, however I used to be residing hand-to-mouth. I made buddies with some artists; Miroslav Antic was one. He was a trainer on the Museum College. He was a lot pushier than me and had a buddy who opened a gallery. He introduced this buddy to my studio, who then provided me a present. I additionally bought a job educating at Harmony Academy, which was just a little higher than being an image framer because it was part-time however just a little bit more cash. I used to be struggling alongside. After which, I had a present at Lopoukhine/Nayduch Gallery in 1979; nothing offered, however there was a number of curiosity from artists, and it was very encouraging.

Grants, so I used to be starting to do okay. I’m a really shy individual. For a time, I’d escape in a sweat simply strolling right into a gallery, not to mention asking them to have a look at my work.

I went to New York and fell in love with artists like Susan Rothenberg, Robert Colescott, The unhealthy portray present on the new Museum, and Philip Guston, Oh my God. I believed this was the last word negation of the Greenbergian tyranny.

LG:
Has Philip Guston’s work influenced you ultimately? Are you able to speak about this just a little?

Gerry Bergstein:
After I first noticed Philip Guston in 1975 at BU when he first began doing the Klan heads and I loathed it, however then in 1979, I used to be doing this self-portrait of me coated with a blanket in mattress, and the form of the blanket was loads like a kind of Klan hoods. There was a cigarette with actually thick smoke popping out of it; then I remembered that present, and prefer it was love. I nonetheless love Guston. I turned very enthusiastic about this new route in portray. My buddy Miroslav was sort of a mentor then. Henry Schwartz, whom I adored, rejected that work utterly, however I didn’t thoughts as a result of I knew Henry cherished me. 

I bought right into a present in 1981, Boston Now, on the Institute of Up to date Artwork, the place yearly they’d placed on a present with about eight Boston artists; it was actually thrilling, after which I bought into one other Boston Now present the following yr after which bought picked up by Stux Gallery. After that, I began promoting each single factor I made. From about 1981 to about 1995. I offered every part. Because of this, I used to be in a position to educate full-time on the Museum faculty as a result of I used to be exhibiting. Instructing at first was only a day job, however then I realized loads from it, and it was actually enjoyable.

LG:
Do you see your self as a part of a continuum of the custom of Boston Expressionist portray, comparable to Hyman Bloom,  Jack Levine, David Aronson, Karl Zerbe, Henry Schwartz, and others after them? 

Gerry Bergstein:
I’ve considerably blended emotions in regards to the Boston expressionists. I like Hyman Bloom. You recognize,  individuals like Arthur Polonsky and David Aaronson, I believed they have been just a little too slick, too crowd-pleasing, virtually too romantic, however I assume they’ve all had a giant affect on me. Surprisingly sufficient, the yr I stop educating, nobody had checked out these guys for many years, I made a decision to do a slide present of all of them for my class. The scholars got here as much as me and mentioned that is the very best artwork we’ve seen in years; we find it irresistible! 

 LG:
 Would you name your self a Neo-Expressionist, or do you reject being labeled as a part of any explicit faculty?

Gerry Bergstein:
Would I name myself a neo-expressionist? I did once I was within the 80s. Together with Francesco Clemente, Jorg Immendorf, David Salle, and Julian Schnabel. I used to be eager about a few of their work; I positioned myself in that spectrum. However there was a number of unhealthy Neo-Expressionism too.  Is Philip Gustin a Neo-Expressionist? I don’t know

LG:
I believe his late work might slot in with that on some stage. I anticipated that you just may react in opposition to being labeled as a Neo-Expressionist; I believed perhaps you’d resent being labeled, That you just’re in a faculty of 1.

Gerry Bergstein:
I’m extra into my ancestral lineage. Perhaps starting with Bruegel and Hieronymus Bosch, occurring to Piranesi, Velasquez, and Goya, after which up by means of Ensor, Rousseau, the Surrealists, the German expressionists, and the Summary Expressionists like de Kooning. Arshile Gorky, Gorky was a giant affect, after which the Neo-expressionists are additionally my forebearers.&nbsp

However what you wish to do is so as to add your individual take to no matter you’re doing–you wish to make it your individual. You’re advancing the custom just a little step at a time. it’s a really broad custom. I imply contains near-total abstraction and likewise artists like Bouguereau and Fragonard. Late in life, I abruptly fell in love with Fragonard, who is sort of my exact opposite. His sentimentality is so blatant that I simply can’t assist however find it irresistible. Nevertheless, Boucher, I don’t like as a lot.

LG:
I don’t know in case you’ve seen the brand new Synthetic Intelligence picture software program the place you give textual content prompts to mix imagery gleaned from thousands and thousands of photos on the internet. I noticed not too long ago the place somebody mixed a Bouguereau nude and a few sort of blue monster.

This type of AI surrealism is, most of the time, fairly dreadful, however I nonetheless suppose it may very well be helpful for producing concepts visually. Sort of like drawing thumbnail sketches. I attempted this some time in the past, writing within the immediate, Picasso portray of the Tower of Babel, to see what may come up. It was fascinating what it selected to do.

Gerry Bergstein:
It’s fascinating and terrifying on the similar time.  Is the painter going to be just like the chess grasp, who can now not beat the pc anymore? I don’t know. However what terrifies me one yr, I can fall in love with the following.

LG:
 I assume the purpose I’m serious about is that a lot of our lineage is open for reinterpretation and making it new. Like perhaps making hybrids like medieval-neo-expressionism or cubist-photorealism. Expertise, in addition to our up to date mindset, permits the previous to proceed in new, thrilling methods. Portray is way from being useless. 

Gerry Bergstein:  
Portray has been declared useless for properly over 100 years. (laughs)
Previous and future generations study the identical points by means of the lens of their tradition and thru their know-how. Some issues might evolve technically and culturally, however the huge points like life and demise, love and intercourse, energy and rage all keep the identical.

LG:
That’s an excellent level. 

You’ve talked up to now about your fascination with juxtaposing contrasting imagery and methods of making use of the paint. You typically paint trompe l’oeil parts, particularly flat issues like tape, over or alongside expressionistic parts. You may additionally incorporate flat, cartoon, or child-like drawings, collage, and sculptural items subsequent to realistically painted fruits. You appear to experience combining the excessive and low-brow, sacred and profane, and the banal with the extraordinary. You as soon as acknowledged that your “work distinction the superior and the trivial, the historic and the non-public, the manic and the melancholic.” Are you able to say extra about why this has engaged you for therefore lengthy?

Gerry Bergstein:
I grew up with studying comedian books, Mad Journal, Twilight Zone, and science fiction magazines, and considered one of my favourite exhibits that I noticed extra not too long ago as a present of Pulp Fiction covers on the Brooklyn Museum. I believe they’re so nice.

My dad and mom have been very cultured, however they have been very shy and remoted virtually, so I had a number of conflicting influences.  I wish to joke that I used to be the rebellious son of accountants and dentists. I’ve all that obsessiveness in me, however I typically explode. It’s constructed into my psychology; even within the 60s, throughout the peak of the scholar strike, after all, I used to be completely in favor of peace and civil rights, however there was additionally what I referred to as psychedelic fascism. It was just like the left telling you what to do as like the suitable was telling you what to do–‘meet the brand new boss, similar because the outdated boss’–or one thing like that, proper? 
I’ve all the time been a skeptic, and I’m unsure why, however I believe it’s an fascinating place to be. I’ve two quotes on my web site, one from John Lennon and the opposite from Groucho Marx. Lennon says all you want is love and Marx says no matter it’s, I’m in opposition to it! (laughs)

LG:
That’s so humorous. Nice.

Gerry Bergstein:
I additionally suppose I can study stuff like what Ivan Albright has in frequent with Jackson Pollock, perhaps not the deepest connection, nevertheless it’s there. What does Chuck Shut have in frequent with the de Kooning, and what makes them totally different? I believe the factor about Chuck Shut was that he was temperamentally unsuited to be an summary painter as a result of he was due to the emotional curler coaster of summary expressionist portray– I do that as properly; if I make one good mark, I abruptly suppose that is the best factor that’s ever occurred in artwork.  The emotional; ups and downs have been an excessive amount of for him. He additionally mentioned that he thought abstraction was not an area for main breakthroughs at the moment.

I even have this concept referred to as probability conferences. I did some collages within the early 2000s; a few of them have been installations hanging in my studio, with every part connected to string and clothesline. And there have been all these photograph reproductions of work speaking to one another. Like perhaps The Flintstones and late Leonardo speaking to one another. And I discover that conglomeration satisfying. And, you realize, individuals criticize it as a result of it was like an excessive amount of of an artwork historic joke, and maybe it was, however perhaps it wasn’t utterly an artwork historic joke as a result of for me, it was one thing actual. 

LG:
William T Wiley stated in an interview speaking about considered one of his exhibits, 

“It’s like Sir Francis Bacon’s assertion, “There’s no factor of fantastic magnificence that doesn’t have inside itself some proportion of strangeness.” So, you realize, excessive and low meet at that time the place authenticate expression emerges, I believe, and a few impressed expression emerges, whether or not it’s with a razor blade or an outdated sock, it’s no matter that individual factor. So you may have one thing there that, the newest post-modern time period is, “Seems to be like artwork, so it should be artwork.”

How do you resolve the stability between the disparate parts and the proportion of strangeness?

Gerry Bergstein:
I like that William Wiley assertion very a lot. I believe that sort of sums it up for me.

LG:
We talked just a little about Greenbergian Modernism artwork dogma and such, together with the inflexible doctrine of each the suitable and left and different comparable closed ideologies which have influenced your artwork and life. Is there something extra to say about this?

Gerry Bergstein:
The issue with ideologies is that they should be put into apply by individuals. All of them have a level of reality, however I believe that private ambition is just like the “uncertainty” precept” of the artwork world and most different human worlds. It’s by no means talked about in ideologies however is a hidden a part of their creation. I really feel strongly about that, perhaps as a result of I used to be so shy for therefore lengthy and other people round me have been expressing themselves with nice authority–I used to be fearful of them. However that’s not true anymore. Now I gained’t shut up. (laughs)

LG:
Did underground cartoonists like Robert Crumb or earlier cartoonists like George Herriman ever have a lot affect in your work?

Gerry Bergstein:
I like R. Crumb. I like that documentary about him. I’m uncomfortable when he beheads girls in his work. Nonetheless, I believe he’s a superb draftsman and a kinky man in an fascinating method. George Herriman, I like simply because Philip Guston preferred him, however I don’t know him very properly. I by no means learn psychedelic comics. As an alternative, I learn stuff like Archie and Superman once I was very younger. The Hardy Boys, the American dream, Father Is aware of Greatest, the American Dream–you’re an excellent boy. You solved the crime–you’re an excellent boy. That was a complete lie, and that compels me, figuring out how we delude ourselves.

LG:
Are you able to say one thing about your portray course of? I’m curious how a lot you consciously plan out your work or do they tackle a lifetime of their very own with out a lot planning beforehand?

Gerry Bergstein:
I’ve had many various processes, however I can provide you just a few of them.

After I was nonetheless at school, I used to be in love with Arshile Gorky, and I cherished the type of eroticism and delicacy of his line and form. I cherished his rigorous compositions, however I couldn’t get it in my very own work. And sooner or later, I had this coloration canvas, and in a match of pique, I simply painted the entire thing black and scraped into it with the again of my paintbrush. I believed, Oh, there’s Gorky’s line. So I fell in love with it. I believed it was the very best portray of the twentieth century, and I confirmed it to BarneyRubenstein, and he mentioned, properly, it’s very good, nevertheless it seems like Gorky. So I realized that it’s important to add one thing. The method that I’ve most likely used essentially the most, and what I’m engaged on proper now, are these black and white items the place I begin out utilizing black gesso and two or three layers of ivory black with just a little wax medium. So there’s just a little little bit of tooth to it; I blot it and let it dry. I then apply zinc white blended with just a little clove oil which retains it moist for a month. I then use these totally different instruments that I scrape into the image. I normally have a construction in thoughts. 

Till about three months in the past, for a few yr, I used to be doing these orb-like shapes; generally, they jogged my memory virtually like a flying saucer, or Earth, or perhaps my mind.  I’d draw within the construction after which randomly, with a number of agitation, transfer my arm round throughout the construction. I’d attempt perspectival and different methods of constructing issues look spherical. Regularly biomorphic shapes or ruined landscapes components of it will emerge, and daily I come into the studio and do it some extra, after which when that every one dried, I’d take these little tiny brushes and improve among the shapes that I noticed. They turned fairly totally different. 

And in my newer ones, I’ve collaged pictures of various components of various work, and I print them in barely totally different colours from black and white. So the latest ones have just a little little bit of coloration in them once more. In order that’ sgraffito method affords me the chance to rorschach and free-associate and make errors. 

I attempted one other factor just a few years earlier for my present “Theory and Practice” at the Naga Gallery  I turned seduced by digital pictures, for higher or worse. It took me about 10 years to do something I type of preferred. My studio flooring is a multitude, it’s a portray in itself, and each time I lower out just a little determine or historic picture that I’d wish to check out in a portray. it falls on the ground together with the drips on the ground, after which I made a decision to pour white home paint on high of all this and canopy up a few of it, however not all of it. I then would stroll round it till I’d discover a composition I preferred. I then had a buddy are available with a 200-megapixel Hasselblad, and he took an image of it for me. I photographed it and printed it out massive, very massive on canvas, like 5 by six toes. 

LG:
Did you print that your self or did you could have another person?

Gerry Bergstein:
Fortunately I had entry to the Museum College’s printers and their Tech Assistants. 

LG:
Wow, that’s nice.

Gerry Bergstein:
So I’d try this, after which I’d take detailed pictures of little components of the ground. So the large shot was the ground assembly the wall.  There was graffiti on the wall, and there was stuff on the ground. However then I’d take these drips of white home paint that may crack after some time. They’d additionally get distressed after I walked on them after they have been dry. They’d start to appear to be fossilized de Kooning pours. So we take photos of them after which lower them out and collage them into the portray. One in all my favorites type of regarded like a fossilized de Kooning. There too, I’d paint into them and see issues within the summary shapes that appear to be photos, however then in the event that they turned an excessive amount of like images-that, they bought corny, I would have to scale it again. It was a sort of a juggling act.

I additionally had a nonetheless life interval once I met Gail, who’s the exact opposite of me. I used to be deeply in love together with her, and he or she turned my muse and led me to make these lovely nonetheless lives of flowers and fruit for 3 or 4 years (within the 90s. – I wished to be very lovely but in addition cope with vanitas, the evanescence of all magnificence in artwork and life.

LG:
These fruit and flower have been virtually little sculptures created from thick paint, proper? 

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, a few of them used toy mannequin railroad staff who have been setting up fruit out of very thick paint. I like the concept of one thing being pure paint and picture concurrently. Like the way you may see in Thiebaud’s thickly painted image of  Ketchup, Mustard, and Mayonaise.

Generally what occurs is that I’m doing one thing for 3 to 5 years and I start to get bored. First, it’s a studying curve, after which after I realized find out how to do it and do some actually good work, It begins to be just a little too straightforward, and I get bored. And so I believe the explanation I ended doing this sgraffito for a few years was that I bought sick of it. Nevertheless, now, I’m into it once more.

In a nonetheless earlier part, I’d paint fruit on a canvas, after which I’d drip white paint on high of it, then I’d paint into the white paint, and steadily, there have been so many drips on high of it that they turned completely summary. Finally, I misplaced my method, and I went into one thing else. 

I developed a few methods for a collection of determine self-portraits the place the pinnacle seems like a drawing, nevertheless it’s truly a portray. I’d take {a photograph} after which have this white paint on high of black paint after which hint a top level view from the {photograph}; I’d then very fastidiously render the pinnacle on the canvas with a pencil. So it regarded like a fairly good realist depiction. However then, on the our bodies, I’d have picture illusions of little scraps of paper with all my favourite artists listed or photos from artists like Gorky or Vija Celmins to my father’s head, to an anatomical chart half. And so my physique turned artwork historical past or one thing private as an artist factor. Randall Diehl, a buddy of Gregory Gillespie’s did this nice self-portrait with tattoos of various artists throughout his physique. I like artwork about artwork.

LG:
That’s so fascinating. I observed that in just a few of your work the place you embrace some kind of self-portrait, You’re carrying this paint-dripped shirt and pants that look just a little like a mix of a de Kooning and a Hubble photograph of the celebs, making you appear to be a cosmic home painter. Is that one thing you made?

Gerry Bergstein:
I made that myself; it’s a t-shirt with black Denims with acrylic poured on high of it. I wore that outfit of the day opening of that present.

LG:
That’s so humorous.

Gerry Bergstein:
Really, I simply wore the shirt I didn’t put on the pants; that may have been an excessive amount of.

LG:
I’m unsure if  Cosmos is the suitable phrase, however there gave the impression to be a motif of the cosmo working by means of numerous your works. I’ve learn that electron microscope imagery of the construction of neural networks within the mind look remarkably much like astronomical photographs that present the bigger patterns of thousands and thousands of galaxies. Your work generally appeared to talk to this fascinating comparability on some stage.

Gerry Bergstein:
The macro and the micro Sure. Completely. Subatomic and deep house. Sure.

LG:
A fantastic concept for a t-shirt!

Gerry Bergstein:
I’m within the cosmos as a result of it’s so superior, mysterious, and religious. I’m type of an agnostic, however I consider there’s one thing that I’ll by no means perceive or also have a clue about; it’s so splendidly mysterious. And then you definately take a look at the Earth, and now we have Donald Trump. Definitely not fantastic and mysterious, he’s the exact opposite of that, from the chic to the ridiculous. I’m eager about that situation too.

LG:
Ugh, please don’t get me began about Trump! I like these new photographs coming from the brand new James Webb House Telescope. Simply so astounding that we now get this new appreciation of the place we’re within the bigger scheme of issues and the way small and insignificant we’re however on the similar time so uncommon and treasured.

Gerry Bergstein:
I do know, they’re going to have the ability to perhaps get clues of the place there is likely to be life. It’s completely wonderful.

LG:
I learn a quote from John Walker saying one thing alongside the traces of  ‘…his varieties need to have the quantity in order that they may indicate different issues, that his work have to be imbued with feeling. In any other case, it’s simply design or ornament.’ Would you agree with this and care to remark additional? Have you learnt him?

Gerry Bergstein:
I don’t know him however I love his work. It’s a superb line. As somebody who loves Bouguereau and Fragonard – I won’t be the very best one to reply about sentimentality.(laughs)` I believe there’s a distinction between emotion and sentimentality. There’s a number of feeling in Max Beckmann; There’s a number of feeling in de Kooning. There’s a number of feeling in Vija Celmins. Surprisingly sufficient. It’s inclusive of feeling, mind, and course of in various proportions or kind of necessary to totally different artists. At instances an artist like Hyman Bloom will get just a little sentimental however it’s a chic sentimentality. So you realize, I believe it’s borderline, however artwork could be nothing with out feeling, and artwork could be nothing with out any person’s thoughts and creativeness. Artwork may also be nothing with out particular person methods of individuals develop. So I believe they’re all necessary.

LG:
I perceive you’re married to the painter Gail Boyajian who paints unimaginable panoramic landscapes with birds. I observed that considered one of her work ( Vanitas, 2015 ) contains the Tower of Babel. And a few of your fruit and flower work present some affinities together with her work.  Regardless of your topics and kinds being so totally different, there appear to be just a few factors the place they intersect. I’m curious to listen to something you may say about having a painter as a associate.

Gerry Bergstein:
I made these Fruit and Flower work for her; We had one within the background within the place the place we bought married. I first noticed Bruegel’s Tower of Babel portray in 1971 on my first journey to Europe, however I cherished it a lot that I went again later with Gail; there’s a complete room of Bruegel’s work. We each love Bruegel.

LG:
I discover each the story of the Tower of Babel and Bruegel’s portray so compelling – just like the bible saying people want to remain of their lane – don’t evolve with larger ambitions like advances in civilization. To not construct our data, medication, science, and humanity any increased. It exhibits how insecure this God should be to fret about people rising above their station.

Gerry Bergstein:
I see it as human ambition taking on from God, and That’s why he destroyed it, and it’s hubris, and it’s the sort of like power-seeking or figuring out every part or which we by no means can do as a result of (goddamn) God made us so we couldn’t do it. (laughs)  However I can see your level; I believe it’s the other facet of the identical coin. It’s in regards to the folly of ambition and energy. However alternatively, that’s all now we have, and I like ambition and energy. It’s a double-edged sword.

LG: 
Sorry, I interrupted you, please proceed speaking about your spouse.

Gerry Bergstein:
It’s a extremely fascinating relationship. She not often watches tv. She doesn’t know what Mad Journal was. She doesn’t know the New Wave music I used to take heed to. However she’s a complete skilled on Henry James and George Eliot. So once we first bought collectively, we vowed that I’d learn Portrait of a Woman, and he or she was going to observe LA Regulation. (laughs) So she watched one episode of LA Regulation, and I learn one chapter of Portrait of a Woman, and we’ve been arguing about it ever since. However now we’re beginning to come collectively within the heart. I learn an amazing biography of Henry James not too long ago; I used to be fascinated by it as a result of he was an bold insecure man, similar to the remainder of us. (laughs) So now we have nice discussions, and he or she’s an excellent critic of sure issues in my work, like the place one thing is spatially. So we’re encouraging and serving to one another in our work. Since our work is so totally different, we’re not aggressive with one another. She has a distinct type of ambition than I do. My ambition is altering as I become older, just a little extra contemplative. I’m not so anxious.

LG:
As you become older, are you engaged on a smaller scale?

Gerry Bergstein:
Really, it’s getting larger; it’s getting each larger and smaller.

LG:
The size of so a lot of your works is large. I’m curious; some painters I’ve talked to begin to work smaller as a result of they don’t have the space for storing or different causes, however you promote most of your work, in order that’s most likely not a problem, proper?

Gerry Bergstein:
I don’t promote an enormous quantity of labor. I just like the individuals on the Naga Gallery–they’re actually sincere and useful. However I believe a few of my newer work is simply too fragile and enormous, I don’t know why I like  to maintain doing it. I assume I’m an fool. (laughs) Perhaps working bigger is a response to mortality. I’ve had just a few well being issues; nothing will kill me imminently. However I understand, in a method, I by no means have earlier than, that that is going to finish, and I wish to get my final shot in or one thing. Final yr I labored on three tremendous massive work, the biggest of which was 90 by 112 inches. That took over a yr, and now I’m returning to considerably smaller work.

LG:
The inhabitants explosion of painters over the previous a number of many years has made the competitors to point out and promote work impossibly stiff, particularly in a higher-end market the place somebody may make sufficient to reside on. Work are sometimes valued much less for inventive advantage and extra for saleability or advertising and marketing. What opinion are you able to share about this dynamic? 

Gerry Bergstein:
That’s an fascinating query as a result of I like to promote work, and I’m all the time fantasizing about promoting work, but when I have been extra eager about promoting, I’d make very totally different work. So it’s a blended bag. I do work that’s troublesome after which complain if nobody desires it. (laughs)  I do give it some thought, actually, however I don’t let it intervene with decision-making within the precise act of portray. It’s a balancing act.

LG:
It appears to me that for some artists, the extra they attempt to make it sellable, the more serious it will get. The necessary factor is to concentrate on the integrity of the work, which you do. 

Gerry Bergstein: 
It’s actually laborious. Placing your self out on the earth. It’s crucial. I do it reluctantly, however I do it. Nevertheless, I do it much less as I’m getting older. I’m exhibiting much less and getting out on the earth.  Covid, after all, was little bit of a damper. (laughs)

LG:
How a lot ought to younger painters care in regards to the industrial potential of their art work? What recommendation may you provide the youthful era of painters developing?

Gerry Bergstein:
They need to be serious about making buddies with different artists. That’s good for dialogue of the work and likewise good for introductions. I bought my begin from a buddy who launched me to a supplier and bought a present. I most likely would have by no means completed that alone. However you may go too far in both route. I agree with you. College students want some type of dialogue of what occurs proper after faculty and find out how to survive, find out how to survive with a day job, and have a aim to work themselves as much as. As shy as I used to be, when my work began getting good, about 1980, and I started to face behind my work, I didn’t have any downside exhibiting it to individuals, however earlier than that, I used to be all the time just a little shaky, and perhaps for an excellent purpose. Even now, I don’t typically ship my work out to sellers very a lot in different cities. I used to do this. I confirmed in locations apart from Boston. 

I believe younger artists have to know that it’s a tough enterprise. They need to be very persistent in order that they could luck out and have a present and promote after they’re very younger, which comes with its personal difficulties. Or they could need to work for a number of years. I had I’ve had college students for whom I write letters of advice to get into graduate faculty yearly for ten years, after which lastly, they get accepted. I believe it takes a very long time to discover ways to paint. There’s one lady I taught; not solely did she get into grad faculty, however now she’s getting these educating jobs. She’s an amazing panorama painter, and if she hadn’t labored for eight or 9 years with out a lot recognition, It could have been unhappy as a result of she’s doing terrific work.

For those who get discouraged and wish to stop, that’s your online business. I’ve additionally had painters who bought out of grad faculty and began exhibiting in galleries a yr later and offered their work for some huge cash, after which–similar to that–it ends. They’ll’t determine what else to do. No matter you’re doing, it’s important to be in it for the lengthy haul, be sincere with your self and let the chips fall the place they could. The entire thing in regards to the overblown artwork market, work promoting for a whole lot of thousands and thousands of {dollars}, is obscene. However the different query is that if I might promote a portray for 100 million {dollars}, I wager I’d! (laughs) I nonetheless suppose it’s obscene. Artists need to make a residing, perhaps even a cushty residing, however this commodification stuff, with individuals, are shopping for artwork for the mistaken causes, is terrible. The younger artist has to navigate commodification in addition to with the ability to navigate socializing and friendships. They need to be assertive and get their work on the market and don’t anticipate it all the time to work out, to have a thick pores and skin. Making use of for grants and the like, it’s a crapshoot. And you realize, Perhaps in case you’re fortunate, you’ll get one in 20 tries, so simply hold doing it.

 

LG:
Do you could have a present developing sooner or later within the close to future?

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, in September 2023 on the Naga Gallery.

LG:
You’ll be exhibiting these new massive work you talked about there?

Gerry Bergstein:
I’ve some small ones to point out too. The Gallery Naga is so nice; they encourage you to take extra dangers and never be nervous about what individuals suppose; they’re very supportive. I’m completely happy about that.

LG:
From what I do know, it’s a superb gallery with a splendidly numerous vary of painters. 

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, they do.

LG:
Many galleries are having a tough time on this economic system and all. Are they doing okay?

Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, the Naga is wholesome as a result of they’re good enterprise individuals. Since covid, it has sophisticated issues for all of the galleries.

LG:
is Arthur Dion nonetheless the director?

Gerry Bergstein:
No, Arthur retired. Meg White changed him. Arthur has develop into a really severe Buddhist.

LG:
Is Buddhism one thing that pursuits you as properly? It’s been necessary for a lot of painters, like Gregory Gillespie

Gerry Bergstein:
Solely peripherally. I’ve tried meditation, however I’m so unhealthy at it. David Sipress had an amazing cartoon, of a person elevating his hand in a meditation class saying,  “I’m serious about not considering, is that appropriate?” (laughs)  And that’s what occurs to me once I meditate. I do it infrequently, and it’s useful if I’m anxious about one thing. How about you, do you meditate?

LG:
No, nonetheless,  after lunch, I wish to take heed to classical music in an virtually asleep, dreamlike state for 20 minutes or so. It’s rejuvenating. I don’t suppose it’s meditating, although, nevertheless it works for me.
Do you paint whereas listening to music?

Gerry Bergstein:
Classical music, sure! I like chamber music. After I began this new collection of work, I listened completely to the chamber music of Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert, and Mendelssohn, whereas I used to be portray and it was so inspiring. I additionally love rock music.

LG:
Do you ever fear in regards to the music influencing the portray an excessive amount of on some stage?
Gerry Bergstein:
Sure, I’ve heard that; perhaps that’s true. And I used to all the time till I used to be till about 1990 I listened to music consistently within the studio. Both classical or new wave, Punk or no matter. After which abruptly I began listening to the information…

LG:
Oh no, that’s fairly unhappy lately. (laughs)

Gerry Bergstein:
After which now I’m again listening to music. However not fairly as a lot, I’ve to remind myself. However once I’m doing it, I find it irresistible.

LG:
I really feel that I wish to paint as a lot as I can. If I spent all my time portray with no music, then I’d by no means get to take heed to music. Life’s laborious sufficient; you may as properly take pleasure in it wherever you may!

Gerry Bergstein:
Precisely. I agree; I like music; I believe it’s the very best artwork type.

LG:
Generally I think about what musician could be most like a sure painter, what musician would I equate them with? Perhaps your musical doppelgänger could be Frank Zappa, would that be truthful?

Gerry Bergstein:
Completely!, We’re in it Just for the Cash is considered one of my all-time favourite albums.

LG:
A humorous factor – that album I heard was a part of a challenge that Zappa referred to as No Commerical Potential – but it was such an enormous success. One other instance of the significance of being true to your inventive self.

Gerry Bergstein:
I additionally take heed to John Coltrane and Charlie Mingus. Generally I think about the blacks in my portray remind me of somebody enjoying the cello, like a Bach Cello Suite or one thing. So it’s a variety.
However then, I’ll take heed to Little Richard the following day. I wish to have Beethoven’s Grosse Fugue, adopted by Chuck Berry’s Roll Over Beethoven, performed at my funeral.

LG:
That sounds good. Let’s hope that gained’t be for a lot of, a few years sooner or later.